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WANTS vs NEEDS

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Subj: City Budget / City Spending  Date: 5/27/02 3:53:37 PM Central Daylight Time From: bruce.tatro@cityofhouston.net To: Housnitch1@aol.com File: SIMDesk-RCA.pdf (399399 bytes) DL Time (45333 bps): < 2 minutes Sent from the Internet (Details)

http://wwws.sun.com/software/star/staroffice/6.0/index.html )

click right there and e-mail them ALL at one time!

********************************************************************

Notes : Phoenix
From: Bud Taylor,   Aide to Council Member Tatro
To: Council Member Bruce Tatro
May 14, 2002

I talked to Mr. Danny Murphy CIO of the City of Phoenix pertaining to the possibility that the City of Phoenix would be interested in IAT s SimDesk software package. The City of Phoenix was asked to allow IAT to make a SimDesk presentation to the their information service department. This request was made through the local Federal Congressional Representative s office by a lobbyist and the presentation took place in January of this year. At that time IAT told the City of Phoenix, the City of Houston was installing SimDesk citywide.

Mr. Murphy stated the City of Phoenix would not, after viewing the presentation, install the SimDesk software on any city employee PC s or desks. They have about 9000 PC in use in the City of Phoenix system. Their conclusion was that the software was not robust enough to be used by city employees but could be installed on city PC s in each of their libraries and city centers for the use of citizens who do not have access to their own PC s. The City of Phoenix would only do this if there were federal funds made available. The lobbyist or the Congress Member s staff said that federal funds might be available but nothing more has been heard at this time about federal funds. He also said that it was the policy of the Mayor and city council that the City of Phoenix would not compete with private enterprise in the city. Therefore it is doubtful that the City of Phoenix will install this software unless the local Federal Congressional Office were to push the instillation.

Mr. Murphy said he felt that there were ways to increase the utilization of city PC s or maybe using a internet appliance was a way to go with software for word processing, spreadsheet, and e-mail running from a net work server. The City of Phoenix has not studied this problem at this time.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes : Chicago
May 21, 2002
To: Bruce Tatro
From: Bud Taylor,   Aide to Council Member Tatro

I talked this morning to Chris O Brien CIO of City of Chicago at 312-744-5844. The City of Chicago is going to install Simdesk for use by the general public. The city is going to use grant money with a small amount of city funds. There is no savings involved only the ability of the city to give the general public, that would have no other way to access a computer, access.

The City of Chicago is going to use a third party installer who will also own the Software license. They have had three or four companies in the area evaluate the software and found it was OK for the proposed use the City of Chicago plans. If at a later date they can convert 25% of their present computers to Simdesk (old computers that can t run Microsoft Office Suite) then that saving will be nice to have. Mr. O Brien feels that for the 25% many of which are using and happy with Windows 95. The City of Chicago will install Simdesk on these computers thus cutting back on Microsoft license costs. The City of Chicago is trying to find a way that they can cut down on the license costs of Microsoft software. This may be the way to do it but it is possible that Microsoft will change their offering if there is enough Simdesk like packages or user that change.

Bruce Tatro,
Houston City Council, District A
P.O. Box 1562, Houston TX 77251
Phone-713-247-2010
Fax-713-247-1858
E-Mail:   bruce.tatro@cityofhouston.net
Website:  www.tatro.net

(When replying to e-mail message please include all previous e-mail text for documentation and information purposes.)

26. ORDINANCE approving and authorizing contract between the City of Houston and INTERNET ACCESS TECHNOLOGIES, INC for Desktop Software and Productivity Tools, Licensing and Support Citywide; providing a maximum contract amount - $9,560,375.00 - Equipment Acquisition Consolidated Fund - 3 Years with 3 one year options
EDITORIAL OPINION

On Wednesday, May 22nd, 2002, City Counilmembers  received a demonstration on council floor in the conference room, concerning "SIMDESK"...an almost  $6 million (this year, another $4 million plus in the out yrs)..... boondoggle proposed by the administration.

In researching this company...Housnitch has found the following concerning it's listed officers....

After reading their Bios   

I FOUND THIS HISTORY OF THEIR INVOLVEMENT WITH THE VARIOUS COMPANIES LISTED ON THEIR BIO PAGES.
You can follow the links to read more completely the information WE are discussing.

ROBERT E. KNOWLING Jr, --- CHAIRMAN, CEO

11/01/00- Updated 01:39 PM ET
                                                            

Covad chief resigns after stock drop

SANTA CLARA, Calif. (AP) — Covad Communications chief executive Robert E. Knowling Jr. has resigned from the high-speed Internet access provider, under apparent pressure after disappointing quarterly results caused the company's stock to plummet.
............................................new leadership was in Covad's ''best interest.'' Knowling, 45, also served as president and chairman of the board. Covad's board said it came to mutual agreement with Knowling on his departure at its regularly scheduled board meeting...........

   

Covad last month reported a wider-than-expected third-quarter loss..........$11.4 million.

    

Covad's shares have tumbled ................. $66.66 in March to a low of $3.40......... .....

    

Knowling, .......acknowledged  pressure in an interview in early October with The Associated Press — just two weeks before the earnings announcement..... Covad said in a statement the board was searching for a permanent replacement........
           

Copyright 2000 Associated Press. All rights reserved.
               

Knowling is on the board of directors for this company.... Ariba, Inc. 

Press Release
Milberg Weiss (the same plaintiff class action attys representing Enron employees and creditors)... filed a class action complaint alleging violations of the federal securities laws by Ariba, Inc. and certain of its officers and directors. If you purchased shares of Ariba between June 23, 1999 and December 23, 1999 you qualify to par 

www.milberg.com same company filed against Covad

Ariba inc...Ariba: Remember when Ariba was considered a powerhouse? What the hell happened? The stock once closed at $366 per share. Now it's lucky to bust through the $6 mark. Demand is waaaaaaaaaaaay down.

ARIBA/COVAD LAWSUITS
http://www.milberg.com/mil-cgi-bin/mil?start=next&templ=current-cases.html...#196 is case against Covad
http://www.milberg.com/mil-cgi-bin/mil?start=next&templ=current-cases.html...#316 is case against Ariba Inc...

Housnitch has asked the law firm to send HOUSNITCH any and all press releases on both these cases...naming defendants

Ray C. Davis, FOUNDER, CTO

(ALL letters and e-mail correspondence become the property of HOUSNITCH and housnitch.com. Unless otherwise expressly requested, we are entitled to publish all such correspondence. We reserve the right to edit letters for length and clarity, and for content that might get us sued, or to withhold their publication. Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of our editors or sponsors.)

It is beyond my comprehension how this poorly researched and unthoughtout multimillion dollar contract with a company without a credible track record was even considered for recommendation for approval, let alone made its way on to the formal agenda, particularly during such budget hard times as the city supposedly now has.  You would vote for this give away while at the same time cutting library hours, etc.?  If you vote for this, I consider it a serious breach of your fiduciary responsibility to the taxpayers of this great city.  

From: 
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 1:42 PM
To: HOUSNITCH1@AOL.COM
Subject: RE: SIMDESK

Ray Davis the founder of SimDesk had another company in town called Cynet  he took a lot of investors money and he sold out on top.

SimDesk may have illegal code as well, I was told they have written their own client to a Citrix server giving them a thin client without  the monthly fees. 

If the city of Houston wants to save money they can freeze MS office version where they are today or buy Star Office from Sun for $55 / license….   This is a political boon doggel.      

ASSED KALIL...DIRECTOR

HIS "NATIONAL" SALES COMPANY?..... Rainbow vacuum cleaning system from Rexair, Inc. Official site of the Rainbow vacuum cleaning system, presented by the manufacturer, Rexair, Inc.  www.rainbowsystem.com

WMA Securities, Inc. (CRD #32625, Duluth, Georgia) submitted a Letter of
Acceptance, Waiver, and Consent in which the firm was fined $125,000 and required to retain, within 30 days, an outside consultant to perform four periodic reviews of the firm’s compliance with NASD Rule 3070(c). Without admitting or denying the allegations, the firm consented to the described sanctions and to the entry of findings that it failed to report statistical and summary information regarding customer complaints to the NASD. The findings also stated that the firm failed to establish, maintain, and enforce procedures reasonably designed to ensure that the firm reported customer complaints to the NASD. (NASD Case
#CAF000024)

           http://www.insure.com/life/wma800.html
           http://www.nasdr.com/news/pr2000/ne_section00_185.html
          

NASD Regulation Press Release - 08/15/00

               Summary: Washington, D.C.-NASD Regulation, Inc., announced today that it has fined WMA Securities, Inc., based in Duluth, Georgia, $125,000 for failing to report nearly 900 customer complaints. These complaints represented approximately 75 percent of the firm´s c

           http://www.nasdr.com/pdf-text/0009dis.txt
              

               Summary: NASD Regulation, Inc. (NASD RegulationSM) has taken disciplinary actions against the following firms and individuals for violations of National Association of Securities Dealers, Inc.
  

(NASD(r)) rules; federal securities laws, rules, and regulations; and 
           

           http://www.nasdr.com/2910/1120_01.asp
           http://www.nasdr.com/2910.asp
           http://www.nasdr.com/press_index00.asp
           http://www.nasdr.com/rca_fall00_dis.htm
          http://www.nasdr.com/pdf-text/oho_dec01_38.txt
           http://www.nasdr.com/pdf-text/0008dis.txt
      
     

NASD Disciplinary Actions - Fall 2000

               

Summary: In July, August, and September 2000, the NASD announced the following disciplinary actions against these firms & individuals. 
               

Summary: NASD Regulation, Inc. (NASD RegulationSM) has taken disciplinary actions against the following firms and individuals for violations of National Association of Securities Dealers, Inc. 

(ALL letters and e-mail correspondence become the property of HOUSNITCH and housnitch.com. Unless otherwise expressly requested, we are entitled to publish all such correspondence. We reserve the right to edit letters for length and clarity, and for content that might get us sued, or to withhold their publication. Views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of our editors or sponsors.)

Subj: Sim Desk
Date: 5/25/02 12:47:49 AM Central Daylight Time
From: 
To: housnitch1@aol.com

HOUSNITCH,
Sim Desk.  I am still unsure of how this thing works.  I get conflicting information from the various sources.  It sounds like the processing is done on a central server, but somewhere in the information, it indicates that you can work offline, which means that the processing must be done locally.  Anyway, for the purposes of argument, I have approached these points with the presumption that the remote server handles all computing.

1. From the "Company" page:

  "Because IAT has developed its own software, no license fees are paid to  software manufacturers, thus allowing extremely attractive pricing for the end user."

Software manufacturers charge licensing fees to pay for the work involved in developing their software, and for the costs and incentives to continue to refine, enhance and expand their software in the future.  If these people developed their own software, they still had the cost of development!  It is just that the cost came out of their pocket instead of someone else's.  OF COURSE, THE OTHER POSSIBILITY IS THAT THEY STOLE SOMEONE ELSE'S WORK.  That would certainly allow them to offer their product for less.

2. I'm not sure that I understand where SimDesk is supposed to be used.  Is this just supposed to be used in the libraries, or is it supposed to be deployed in city offices as well?  If it is the latter, has anyone addressed the security issue.  After all, the data will be stored on Sim Desk's storage system.  Even if it is stored locally, all data must be transmitted across the Internet for processing at a remote site.  That means that even documents stored locally will be susceptible to prying eyes.

3. All processing is done on a remote server.  While it doesn't mean that there will only be one server processing everyone's data, it does mean that the system is subject to overloading, just like AOL or any shared environment.  Of course, the advantage to this arrangement is that the subscribers don't have to invest in their own software.  In an environment like the city or the library that can be a sizeable investment.  However, there are ways to legally get around the "one machine, one software" licensing by using an application server that will only serve, concurrently, the number of copies for which it is licensed.

4.  This is from a USA Today article dated June 20, 2001:

    "SimDesk has no plans to sell the service itself. It has an impressive $12 million in financing, but its 41 employees aren't in much of a position to take on the Microsoft horde. Instead, SimDesk wants to sell the technology to a big company that already has a way to reach millions. Its chief target is AOL,which has 25 million customers and a grudge against Microsoft the size of Jupiter." 

So, if they want sell the technology to AOL, does that mean that
Houston will be SOL?

5. In the August 20, 2001, USA Today article linked from the
SimDesk site:

    "The city will give residents free use of about 1,000 PCs already in libraries and fire and police stations. Houston residents who own PCs also can access the software if they have an Internet service provider." 

Interesting that, with all the access available during the past 9 months, there were only 21,000 petition signatures in support of this scam.  Even if those were all registered voters, that is still not enough to force a vote!  Let's put that in perspective.  Using Brown's logic for rail:  Houston - 1.9 million people; in favor -21,000; opposed - 1,879,000.

6. op. cit. #5:

    "We saw an opportunity in the information age to bridge the digital divide by making computers accessible to every Houstonian," says Mayor Lee Brown 

How will we make these services available to the homebound?  Will the libraries, fire and police stations become answering services for people who are expecting an e-mail response from a potential employer, but can't, or won't go to check their mail because they don't have transportation, or it is too much trouble to bundle up the kids?

7. op. cit #5:

    The city and IAT have not formalized their contract. But it will  be a 3-year, multimillion-dollar deal, officials say.

Pretty fucking sure of themselves nearly a year ago.

8. op. cit. #5

    "We expect to have (people) standing in line to use the Internet," says Denny Piper, the city's chief information officer 

So, how do you suppose they will allocate the resources among the throngs of anxious Internet users?  Ah, if only it were a fish and a couple of loaves of bread I could satisfy all of them.

9. One of the quotes in the July 20, 2001, USA Today article:

    "Applications will soon be as transportable as information has been, and inextricably linked and inseparable from information," says David Roberts, co-founder of Zaplet, a company that created an early version of fused data and applications." 

This is apparently supposed to be similar technology to SimDesk.  Here is the posting from a couple of days ago on Fucked Company, a site devoted to posting both rumors and reality about companies undergoing difficulties (to be diplomatic).

    Kraplet
  Rumor has it Zaplet's entire sales team was just let go.
  When: 5/22/2002
  Company: Zaplet
  Severity: 80
  Points: 180

  Initially, the guy focused on DotComs, then added any tech company.  Now, he seems to have added large non-tech.

A search of the FC archives for Robert Knowling produced one "Rumor" hit.  CyNet produced two "Rumor" hits.  Unfortunately, I am not willing to pay $75/mo for access to the archives.

Finally, one last quote:

    "...says Mayor Lee Brown, who was New York police
    commissioner and drug czar in the Clinton administration. "It's
    crucial to have e-mail and electronic résumés."

and a observation:

"An unemployed man applied for a job with Microsoft as a janitor.  
The manager there arranged for him to take an aptitude test (Section: floors, sweeping, and cleaning).  After the test, the manager said, "You will be employed at minimum wage, $5.15 an hour.  Let me have your e-mail address, so that I can send you a form to complete and tell you where to report for work on your first day." 

Taken aback, the man protested that he had neither a computer nor an e-mail address.  To this the MS manager replied, "Well, then, that means that you virtually don't exist and can therefore hardly expect to be employed." 

Stunned, the man left.  Not knowing where to turn and having only $10 in his wallet, he decided to buy a 25-pound flat of tomatoes at the supermarket.  Within two hours, he had sold all the tomatoes individually, nearly doubling his money.  Repeating the process several times more that day, he ended up with almost $100 before going to sleep that night. 

So, it dawned on him that he could quite easily make a living selling tomatoes.  Getting up early every day and going to bed late, he multiplied his profits quickly.  After a short time he acquired a cart to transport several dozen boxes of tomatoes, only to have to trade it in again so that he could buy a pickup truck to support his expanding business. By the end of the second year, he was the owner of a fleet of pickup trucks and managed a staff of 100 formerly unemployed people, all selling tomatoes. 

Planning for the future of his wife and children, he decided to buy some life insurance. Consulting with an insurance adviser, he picked an insurance plan to fit his new circumstances. At the end of the telephone conversation, the adviser asked him for his e-mail address in order to send the final documents electronically. 

The man replied that he had no e-mail.  The adviser, stunned, asked "What, you don't have e-mail?  How on earth have you managed to amass such wealth without the Internet, e-mail, and e- commerce?  Just imagine where you would be now, if you had been connected to the Internet from the very start!" 

After a moment of thought, the tomato millionaire replied, "Why, of course!  I would be a floor cleaner at Microsoft!"  

THIS ONE IS FREE FOR THE DOWNLOAD GUYS!

(TRUE, IT DOESN'T HAVE FREE E-MAIL...BUT  HOTMAIL.COM AND YAHOO.COM OFFER IT FREE)

OpenOffice.org: MissionStatement

To create, as a community, the leading international office suite that will run on all major platforms and provide access to all functionality and data through open-component based APIs and an XML-based file format.

In the News: From The Washington Post

"OpenOffice.org 1.0 arrived, and Microsoft Office's long winning streak may finally screech to a halt. OpenOffice is what many computer users have been waiting and wishing for: It's free, open-source, Office-compatible and cross-platform (Windows, Linux and Solaris, with a Mac OS X version in early development)." --Rob Pegoraro, Washington Post Technology Columnist May 12, 2002 Rob Pegoraro, writing for the Post takes an honest look at OpenOffice.org 1.0 and likes what he sees. The article, written for one of the US's major newspapers, is a must-read for anyone curious about OpenOffice.org 1.0 and what it does. But OpenOffice.org is more than a product, and Mr. Pegoraro praises the OpenOffice.org community and project for doing what Microsoft cannot. The full review is available on the Post's website. LOOK AT ALL THE LANGUAGES THIS PROGRAM COMES IN!!!!

Home  About Us  News  Downloads     Application     Source     Developer  Join/Login  Projects  Mailing Lists  Bugs and Issues  Contributing  To-Dos  Help  FAQs  Guidelines  Documentation Search:

OpenOffice.org 1.0 Downloads Updated 2002 May 18 Contents OpenOffice.org 1.0 Office Suite PPC Linux OpenOffice.org 638c for Mac OS X (Developer Build) Features System Requirements Md5sums Download Managers Release Notes Developer Software Source Solver OpenOffice.org 1.0 Office Suite First, click on the language of your choice... A - H   J - T Arabic (ar)   Hungarian (hu) Catalan (ca)   Italian (it) Chinese (zh-cn)   Japanese (ja) Chinese (zh-tw)   Korean (ko) Danish (da)   Polish (pl) Dutch (nl)   Portuguese (pt) English (en)   Russian (ru) Estonian (et)   Slovenian (sl) Finnish (fi)   Spanish (es) French (fr)   Swedish (sv) German (de)   Thai (th) Greek (el)   Turkish (tr) You will be taken to the language group you chose. Click on the mirror site closest you. Downloads should begin immediately. If the mirror site returns an error, enter the general mirror URL. Mirrors carrying localized (translated and adapted) versions of the application for Linux and Windows may carry them in a directory called "localized" or "contrib." Download the version that has the correct international language code in the filename, as listed in the table to the left (e.g., for French, "fr"). Solaris localizations are not fully implemented yet. Localized sites, with information and downloads include: Deutsch | Français | Italiano | Nederlands As always, please download files with caution, as viruses and errors might enter a file in transmission. The "md5sum" allows you to verify the integrity of the download. MD5sums Instructions for use. If you cannot download from the mirror site you have selected, choose another. A list of mirror sites by country can be found on the Mirrors page. You can also purchase a CD-ROM. Instructions for installing the application:  Windows | Linux Other files:   PPC Linux OpenOffice.org 1.0   OpenOffice.org 638c for Mac OS X (Developer Build)   Download Managers   Features   Localizing and Translating OpenOffice.org | Dictionary

OpenOffice.org

Awards & Endorsements

Collab.Net

"The release of StarOffice under an open source license is a tremendously cool thing. The influence of closed standards and proprietary software has made the office productivity application space an extremely difficult arena for the open source community to address. Sun's action today resolves this problem by providing a much needed application."

Brian Behlendorf

Co-founder and CTO

Collab.Net

HelixCode Inc.

"Sun's announcement to make their office suite free software under the GPL and SISSL licenses will be a benefit to everyone. Their choice of Bonobo as a component framework will enable powerful scripting and code reuse not only on the desktop, but on the system as a whole. When I started GNOME three years ago, I had two goals: a 100% free, easy-to-use desktop environment and component architecture for GNU/Linux. With Helix Code and Sun working together, we can finally see this vision realized. The GNOME community is now investigating the best way to integrate these technologies just released with the GNOME environment with the goal to bring a comprehensive solution to everyone."

Miguel de Icaza

President and Founder

HelixCode Inc.

 

Eazel

"One of the last remaining barriers to widespread adoption of Open Source software on the desktop is the paucity of high quality, easy-to-use applications. Today's announcement of the GPLing of StarOffice goes a long way toward filling that gap. Everyone at Eazel is very excited to work with Sun's talented team to integrate their world-class productivity applications with the Gnome desktop."

Andy Hertzfeld

Co-founder

Eazel

 

O'Reilly and Associates

"Microsoft's lock in on its Office file formats is arguably at least as important to their monopoly position as their control of the operating system itself. The availability of StarOffice under the GPL will give Linux a boost on the desktop, but more importantly, the wide availability of StarOffice's code for reading and writing Microsoft Office formats will allow other open source projects to provide compatible functionality as well. Open data is the other side of the open source coin."

Tim O'Reilly

Founder and CEO

O'Reilly and Associates

 

Caldera Systems, Inc.

"Sun strengthens their commitment to the Linux community with their announcement to open source StarOffice. This combination of StarOffice performance and OpenLinux reliability, helps us deliver a quality product and needed application to the Linux community."

Dean Taylor

Vice President, Marketing

Caldera Systems, Inc.

 

Conectiva Informatica

"Since Sun's acquisition of StarDivision, StarOffice software has continued to improve. Making StarOffice source available will increase the pace of improvements by enabling the open source community to bring its considerable expertise to the office productivity arena."

Sandro Henrique

CEO

Conectiva Inc.

 

Definite Software

"Sun's decision to make StarOffice open will continue driving the ubiquity of open source software. The open source community will now have a top-notch productivity to draw from as it innovates and develops exciting new applications."

Brian Teeman

Director

Definite Software PLC

 

Macmillan USA

"The market for office productivity software is excellent, and Macmillan USA is delighted Sun will continue to support Linux and open source communities with the StarOffice code. This effort will continue to increase the adoption of

StarOffice as well as increase the market for Linux software products."

Doug Guendel

Senior Vice President, Sales and Marketing

Pearson Technology Group (PTG)

 

Techology publishing leaders Macmillan USA and Pearson Professional Technical Reference (PTR) joined forces last fall to form PTG, the world's largest provider of consumer and professional computer, information technology, engineering and reference content, business books.

 

Mandrake Soft

"As long time supporters of StarOffice software on Linux, MandrakeSoft is excited Sun is making the source code available. The benefits that the open source community will bring to this feature rich suite will continue the momentum in the market for this exciting alternative to Microsoft Office."

Frederic Bastok

COO

Mandrake Soft

 

Red Hat Linux, Inc.

"We support Sun's commitment to an open desktop for all UNIX/Linux environments. The availability of professional applications like StarOffice software with Red Hat Linux only serves to further validate the platform and the future growth potential of Linux."

Paul McNamara

Vice President, Products and Platforms

Red Hat Linux, Inc.

 

Stormix Technologies Inc.

"The addition of StarOffice to the open software community will allow office productivity software to take off in the same way that Linux has over the past year. Stormix Technologies Inc. is pleased that Sun is taking this bold step and applauds their approach. This announcement will further enable Stormix customers to receive the best application software available on the Linux operating system."

David Talmor

founder and CEO

Stormix Technologies Inc.

 

SuSE Linux AG

"As a Linux solutions provider, SuSE helps consumers, small to medium-sized businesses, corporations, government agencies and educators around the world make informed decisions when purchasing computer technology. With Sun's commitment to open source StarOffice this expands the market for product implementations based on open standards."

Roland Dyroff

CEO

SuSE Linux AG

(NOT ONE OF THESE CEOs ARE UNDER INVESTIGATION!!!!!)

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PLEASE COUNCILMEMBERS

… EXERCISE YOUR FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITIES TO THE TAXPAYERS IF THIS GREAT CITY.

 

WE DON'T NEED THIS CONTRACT...KILL IT....

IN THE NAME OF ACCOUNTABILITY, FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY

...VOTE NO ON THIS ITEM!!!!

WE NEED TO KEEP OUR LIBRARIES AND CITY HEALTH CLINICS FULLY STAFFED BEFORE WE NEED THIS!!!!

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"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."

-George Washington

That's all this time around guys...tell em what you think darlins, we get tired of telling  them by ourselves.......

CITY COUNCIL

HOUSNITCH

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